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Discussion Starter #1
We have had a couple rear driveshaft splines strip out. We may have a member with this condition right now.

If you lock up the rear disk on the rincon the rear wheels will whip back and forth against the freeplay in the rear end and splines. Its hard to describe but easy to see and feel. I watched Gooch lock up his rear brakes and slide past me in Harlan, the amount of back and forth wheel rotation was amazing. This puts huge impact loadings into the entire rear drivetrain...especially the rear splines. Its a function of having the disk on the driveshaft and not at the rear wheel hubs.

My advice, never lock up the rear brake in 2wd unless its an emergency. In 4 wd the rincon transfers braking torque (force)to the front end also and avoids this rear wheel whipping motion.

Wheelies are hard on the splines also but you can't avoid whellies..right :)
 

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Thanks Corndog. You have mentioned this many times. So what your saying is use the rear brake as a back up or only when going down hill? Now Isee why you got 9000 miles from your rear beake.

Perhaps a "visual aid" either showing affected parts or before and after parts would help illistrate to some of our more thick headed members.

No Gooch, you ain't thick headed. BKR is though. LOL
 

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hmm. mine really only does the chatter when coming down hills. and anymore I put it in 4wd if I can because it does give me better control. but I always use my rear brake to get the rear to slide through corners.
 

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Wheelies are absolutely unavoidable. So I guess I will be searching the Internet for rear end parts eventually.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Actually after looking at mine again last night for another thread I am partially incorrect. This will only effect the parts behind the driveshaft splines. The driveshaft is mounted to the front of the disk. So the brake chatter will only effect the rear end gears, CVs, and axle half shaft splines...still abusive and unnecessary wear.

Sunk, I cut my teeth on dirt bikes. Going downhill fast doesn't bother me and I hardly ever use my brakes unless I am trying not to hit somebody. I wouldn't go as far as to say only as a bcak up, but I would stop short of maximum braking and not lock up the rears...its easy to do since it takes a bit of pressure to lock them up any way. In 4wd squeeze away.
 

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So your saying my splines are not alines!!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Gooch..your rincon will never wear out. I suspect crash damage will be its worst enemy.

So next year, will you be taking it as easy as this year? You animal...:)
 

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No next year I am going to take it a noch.I am planning on making it but the way the boeing 787 is going I have to go to boeing to do retrofits on the environmental control system in aug and nov.If it is not done by the end of this year it rolls into next year.
 

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everything lasts longer if you dont use it, or use it gently but thats not what i had in mind
 

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Yeah, cjk, that's right. Don't use it at all and it'll last forever. What kind of advice is that? Actually, this effect Corndog is referring to (I'd call it 'stick-slip induced torsional oscillation') doesn't hurt the drive line or axle splines at all*, even if the drive line was on the bevel gear side of the brake disk. I know Corndog's heart is in the right place but sadly, its more bad mechanical engineering advice from a C.E. who thinks he's a M.E. A properly designed splined connection is stronger than the torsional strength of the shaft. In other words, you will shear off the axle or drive line before you will fail (or even significantly strain) the splines. By far the #1 (maybe the ONLY) failure mode for these splined shafts in the Rincon is corrosion, which will undoubtedly kill them quickly. However, if they are greased and clean, stick-slip oscillation will not hurt them. Just consider that the drive torque of the engine is significantly higher than the judder you might get going downhill with the rear brake on.

So sayeth the "ball-bearing know-it-all" LOL

*inasmuch as any usage at all will produce wear...which is kind of the antonym to "Don't use it at all and it'll last forever"
 

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Pay no mind Rockhound. James has an ego that is second to none and he can't handle being wrong. When he is wrong, (more often than not if real world hands on is involved) he belittles those that challenged him. Very sad. You're new and wouldn't know but I must say he was very quiet after the last bearing humbling he mentions. He's back now in true form. 2 weeks of of a quiet fun get along list is back to James being James. Not to worry James. As much as your above synopsis is complete self thought bullshit on splines, in the real world they fail just as CD said they should. Look up reversing sliding torsional loads and you might come across a word "fretting". Very common in any splined sliding shaft that see's tq reversed within it's travel. And maybe debate it like a human being if you feel the need. Oh, and don't ever apply for a pit crew job where a paper and pencil can't possibly win the race.
 

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Ah, Rick of the extra large hands and even bigger ego chimes in per usual with another load of crap. I think you probably learned the word 'fretting' from my use of it on that bearing thread. You are another guy who thinks he is hot shit when actually you really don't know squat other than what any knuckle buster who's spent his whole life wrenching on old cars does.

For your, and rock hounds information, Corndog was patently wrong in his assessment that using your rear brakes will cause your drive line and axle splines to fail. That is flat out stupid and if you really knew anything about mechanical engineering you would know that. LMAO. Sure, sometimes splines do break, chip, or spall...

-fretting is something that happens as a result of cyclical rubbing due to movement, for example between a shaft and bearing bore, while SPALLING is when material starts to flake off in thin fractures parallel to a surface due to repeated impact, surface stress, or rolling like the balls in a bearing raceway. There's some CORRECT word usage to add to your lexicon, pal-

...but only when something else bad is happening like misalignment, heavy radial vibration, too much torque, or corrosion. I'm not going to dick around with a grease monkey like you over the 1 or 2% life reduction that using your rear brakes 'might' cause in a splined shaft...suffice it to say that Corndoggy would have everyone fearing using their brakes and that is BAD ADVICE. He's flat wrong, just as you are if you agree with him. End of story. I'm not putting it out there to 'stoke my ego' (hahahaha), but to set the record straight. Don't fear the reaper, and don't fear your rear brake.

If you resent me because I'm smart, handsome, naturally helpful and conscientious, TFB. Go do a first class oil change and maybe you'll feel validated.

BTW, I won every point on that ball bearing thread because I was correct and the opposition was wrong...but that's not saying much considering I was being 'debated' (if you can call it that) by a machinist and a civil engineer who only thinks he knows heavy duty shit about mechanics. Oh, and a few blow-hard back of the bussers like RickGTO and sbripple. LOL
 

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And Sunk says I am hard headed.
 

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Someone missed the concept of win-win.
 

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Hard headed? Win-win? What are you guys talking about?

Rick would love for everyone to believe that I made my post on this thread because I am some kind of sad, insecure egotist, but that is just Ricks hateful rhetoric and totally wrong. I made my post on this thread for two good reasons:

1) The OP would have everyone believe that using the rear brake would damage their Rincon. If people actually buy into that absurd idea, they might hesitate to use their rear brake when they shouldn't or worse, get in the habit of not using it at all to 'save their axle splines'(!!). Not only is this advice wrong, it is dangerous. If you get in the habit of not using your rear brake, you risk crashing (swapping ends going downhill, not getting the rear kicked out properly and blowing a corner, etc). Taking Corndog's advice, in this case, might get you hurt or killed. I felt justified to set the record straight in order to avoid this risk.

2) Corndog has always spent great effort to try and discredit me, prove me wrong, or whatever so why should I not return the favor when a glaring opportunity arises? Never better than now when not only is his advice potentially dangerous, but it is wrong on two counts: not only does rear-wheel judder not significantly harm the axle splines, but putting the Rincon in four wheel drive does not change the dynamics of the rear wheels during braking*. Any reflected forces will still be the same, the only difference is that now the front wheels are adding their braking traction too.

*Unless you consider weight transfer which could reduce R.W. judder in some cases and increase it in others!

Y'all should be annoyed with Corndog for posing as a mechanical engineering expert when he demonstratively and emphatically is not.
 

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You win James. I stole your bearing word and used it wrong. Fretting as I know it of 40 or so years with splined couplings is a myth. Rock on. And read this in your spare time. Sorry list for bumping this. I'll never again take the time to even debate the almighty. Joke James, except for the never again part. It's your stage. Make good use of it.



http://www.scientific.net/AMM.5-6.165
 

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Discussion Starter #19
James are you really that insecure? I used to really value your mechanical insight but anymore I think your slowly slipping into a place where you need professional help. I am not mad at you and truly feel sorry for you.

If you are that thick that you can not see I have tried to bury the hatchet with you in a PM (which you caustically through aside and resorted to profane name calling) and in several follow up posts on the forum, then I do give up on you. I try to think I have no enemies but obviuosly I am wrong. If you PM me with trash name calling again I will post it openly for all to see. If its not civil enough to post on the open forum, it doesn't need to be posted at all.

As an aside, I was partially wrong on my original post on this thread and corrected myself a few posts later. This is a pattern I have had since day 1, if I believe I am wrong I am man enough to admit it and to learn from it. Rick has corrected me a few times...did it result in this type of conflict...nope.

I have never known you to be wrong in your own mind and have never seen anything posted by you in these regards (ie that you could ever be anything but 110% correct). Somebody somewhere in your life has did you a disservice and left you with quite a vile attitude. Does that make you wrong...well no. Does it make you an unpleasent chap to deal with...I have my own opinions on that. Have a nice day sir, and please put me back on your shit list where I prefer to stay.

I stand by my advice and am not suggesting to never use the rear brakes...only to avoid locking them up and beating the rear end up in the process.
 

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