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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was talking to a guy on another forum and he said his friend installed a degree key from a 400ex which degreed the crankshaft 6 degrees. I do believe he is talking about the degree key that Curtis Sparks makes for the 400ex. Thing is, the engine must be pulled or else all the gears and such will fall out when the rear crankcase cover is split off.

Anyone ambitious and mechanically skilled enough to pull this off? I know I can, but want to find out for SURE that this key WILL work on the Rincon with no ill effects, then I may decide to tackle the job when I have enough time.

He said this key made a huge difference in throttle response and quickness.
 

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I think this would be the single best performance mod you could do. I was planning on doing mine before I totaled it. I was going to look at relocating the pickup sensor a few degrees as an option to pulling the flywheel, wuold have the same affect. Damn my luck, now I'll never know, unless one of you guys do it.
 

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It's a pulse generator that tells the CDI how many rpms the engine is running and when it is at the timimg marker. Don't know where that marker is myself, could be TDC, or any other place in the engine rotation. It is mounted in the stator housing.

If I had some more info, I would try moving it in the Rancher to see what affect it has, but don't know which way to move it, how much to move it, or what overall affect it would have for sure. Shouldn't be too difficult, make a bracket to move it a few degrees one way or the other. As RinDong says, it should have the same affect as a degree key with a lot less effort. On some quads the rotor(flywheel) will have to be pulled to do it. On others only the stator cover would have to be removed.
 

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Hey, with a little math you could figure out how much to move the pick up (sensor) back before TDC to get the same results as a 6-degree key. This will probably affect shift points in a good way (higher RPM's) due to the ECU being fooled. Might want to burn higher-octane fuel to control detonation (pre- ignition). What the hell, may work?
 

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I did some research last night into moving the pulse generator. It doesn't look like there is enough room where they have it mounted in the stator cover to move
it to any great degree. It is mounted between two bolt holes in the Rinny, and in a notch in the cover in the Rancher. Doubt seriously if moving it the little that is possible would have the desired effect.

Assuming the flywheel is 14" in circumference (just an assumption for speculation purposes), each degree would require 0.038" of movement. 6 degrees would require 0.233" of movement. There is no way where the coil is mounted to get 6 degrees.
Maybe 3 degrees at 0.1166". Don't know how much improvemnent 3 would give. If the flywheel is larger than 14", it gets even less likely to make any difference, since 6 degrees now becomes 0.3" and 3 degrees 0.15" for an 18" flywheel.

But, which way to move it, towards the front of the engine or towards the back?
Anyone know which way a degree key changes the position of the flywheel? Clockwise or counterclockwise?

It looks like the mounting tabs on the pulse generator could be notched and the coil moved some, but enough to do any real good is the question. It also looks like the engine would have to be removed in the Rinny to accomplish this. Might be able to do it without engine removal in the Rancher, although the service manual for both says to remove the engine to remove the stator cover and recoil starter.
 

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To advance the pick-up signal from the coil, you would need to move the coil back against the rotation of the stator (opposite direction). This is the same way to advance the spark on a distributor. My thought is...if this is really worth all the effort, why was HighLifter going after the ECM??? AND...Be REAL careful because it would not take much pre-detonation to trash a engine if you were to succeed and get too much advance. You would certainly need a degree wheel and a way to see the results while running.

This motor is OBVIOUSLY capable of making a shit load of power that has not been tapped. Just look at street bikes, the 450f and snowmobiles. Hell even a Grizz dyno's at 5 more hp. I wonder if Honda is keeping the output low for liability reasons or if the transmission has a seriously low power limit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Honda keeps the power low because of the damn lawyers! Anyway, if we could trick the coil and ignition system into thinking it should fire earlier than it is, we could pickup some more power. I'm going to look into this. What we would be doing would kinda be like advancing the timing with a distributor, easy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Just found out my service manual states the Rincons timing is set at 13° BTDC. So it's not retarded that much. It could definitely be advanced 6 more to make it 7° BTDC. Hopefully that's not the area to make the engine ping.
 

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I think Honda intentionally keeps the power output low to keep the reliability high. They don't want to jeopardize their position as the most reliable machines made.
 

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I am sure the reliability issue is part of it, but only the smaller part.
If it was JUST reliabilty, why put 10-12 more coils on the carb piston
spring than is really needed? To stop wheelies and potential lawsuits, that's
why. Honda is gun-shy after all the lawsuits over the ATCs.

BTDC is advanced, Before Top Dead Center. ATDC is retarded.
We would be shooting for 16-19 BTDC. Right? Don't some race car engines
use as much as 30 degrees of advance? I think where Honda limits the power
is by not advancing it as much as is needed to develop max power. 13 degrees
BTDC is at idle, for good starting. I will bet it the ECM retards it at some point above idle.

Pablo, Highlifter is in the game for money. If they told us we could do this,
they would have no chance of selling us a new module. If this mod can be done, it WILL work as long as Honda hasn't programed the ECM to prevent us from doing it. All we have to do is get it right. Some experimentation will be required, with possible risk of damage. But that risk will be minimized if we consider all variables before the first attempt. I would be willing to try it on my Rancher first. I have a temp probe I can monitor jug temp with, and I should be able to hear any detonation.

One potential problem might be the constant degree of advancement. But, it is the same thing as installing a degree key. Perhaps we should shoot for a small advance first, like 3 degrees, see how that works, then try a larger advance.
Or if 3 degrees gives a marked increase in power, stop there. By moving the pulse generator, we will be advancing the timing throught the entire rpm range.
Will this cause hard starting, or flatten out top end? Or maybe change the operation of the rev limiter, in either direction?

Anyone know the direction of rotation of the flywheel when running?
 

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If you think about what you are trying to achieve, firing the charge with the piston lower in the bore. You would need to move the sensor back toward the rotation or the flywheel forward with the rotation. I believe timing may be why some Rincon’s are stronger than others from the factory. I sure there are some tolerances in the manufacturing of the sensors. And since there is no adjustment in the timing, they ship'm out 'as is' with no fine-tuning. Hope someone tries and it works out. Could give the Rincon a whole reputation.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
WoodsRunner, it would be great if moving the pulse generator would allow a more aggressive timing and a higher rev limiter. Higher topend and faster getting there!
 

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I believe this would not affect the rev limit. The ECU only looks at RPM as far as the rev limit goes. The next trick would be figure out how to raise or eliminate the limiter. If there is new found power and no rev limit it could make for a scary ride.
 

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Actually, I hope it does not affect the rev limiter. The pushrod engine
does not take well to being over-reved. I have seen a Rancher engine
that was over-reved due to a malfunction of the ECM and an inexperienced
thumb. It was totally destroyed. A little more rpm would be nice, as Honda
has it limited conservatively also. My Rancher starts cutting out about 5500 rpm,
and the engine is supposedly good for 7500 without damage. 6500 would be a better limit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The Rincons limit is only 7000 RPMs according to the Tiny Tach I had. My Rinny will hit the limiter in nuetral, barely on the throttle (about 1/8 throttle). That's too low IMO.
 

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Yellow650Rincon, see if you can ask the guy who installed the degree key from the 400EX if he has experienced any detonation of over-heating problems. Ask him to join us and give a detailed report?
 

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Hi, I did this mod for my 2007 Rincon and didnt see any diferece. Did I make it wrong? I made bolt holes for CKP sensor bigger so I can move it. Flywheel diameter is 14 centimetres, so its perimeter is 43,96 cm, so 1 degree is 0.12 cm, so 6 degree is 0.73 cm, i moved it approximately 0,5 cm, but I didnt see any diference. Who know does it work on 680 Rincon?
 

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Very interesting thread I would like to see if this will work if someone trys this let us know how you done it.
 

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I made bigger bolt holes and cuted deeper places in aluminium sticks where CKP sensor is attached so you can move sensor. You need to move it oposite flywheel rotation direction. I moved it 5 mm but I donwt see any diference, I dont know what to do probable I need to move it more.

I am not very good painter but I will add picture where you can see schematic how to drill holes. First is standart second is my modification.
 
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